Iomega, Class Act or Class Action?:
A Continuing Study Into
How Iomega Treats
Its Customers and Employees
Some of what follows is redundant to stuff to be found elsewhere at this site. Not all email I have sent out relative to this site is to be found here, as some redaction has seemed to be appropriate, for purposes of privacy or brevity.
Other correspondence:
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
Hi, Cliff! :)
At 08:43 AM 10/10/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Yeh.
>
>I haven't been able to download the software successfully (was
>unexpandable). That was a couple of weeks ago. I visited the site agin
>today to try again and couldn't even find 5.0 again to try downloading
>it again.
-- Interesting.
> I did an Alta Vista search on "Zip Tools V.5" tp find the
>right spot to try and download it again and the only hit I got (pretty
>unusual) was your site.
-- Glad to be there, then! :))
>If anyone has actualy successfully downloaded this software I would
>like to know how they did it.
-- I finally downloaded it, but have not come up with the interest in finding out what to do with it all. I was able to expand it OK, though.
Do you use IRC? I could DCC Send it to you, if you like, when possible -- I am in the
middle of trying to get a new hard drive going.
Meanwhile, if you want to try again, you should be [able] to get started at
http://www.iomega.maritz.com/io_mega/
>Thanks
-- My pleasure. Hope that this helps.
If I decide to quote people who support my position, may I use your letter?
May I use your email address?
Best wishes!
Steve Langford
Cliff,
I meant to say, too, that the only way I succeeded was to do it on an early Saturday morning.
Steve Langford
Hi, Rob, May, and Cliff! :))
Here is a copy of a letter I received, today:
. . . . .
STATE OF UTAH
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
[The Great Seal
of the
State of Utah
1896]
JAN GRAHAM
ATTORNEY GENERAL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAROL CLAWSON REED RICHARDS PALMER DEPAULIS
Solicitor General Chief Deputy Attorney General Chief of Staff
October 9, 1996
Iomega Corporation
1821 West Iomega Way
Roy, Utah 8 84067
Re: Complaint from Stephen A. Langford
To whom it may concern:
Please find enclosed a copy of a complaint our office received from the above-referenced consumer regarding a transaction involving your business 1 have included a copy of the consumer' s complaint to provide you with an opportunity to respond to the allegations contained therein. If you wish to respond, please mail your written reply to the Utah Attorney General's Office, Division of Consumer Rights, 160 East 300 South, 5th Floor, Box 140872, Salt Lake City, Utah 84114-0872.
If I do not receive a reply within fifteen (15) days from the date of this letter, we will review the matter based on the complaint and any other information we receive during the course of our review. Please be advised that any information you provide our office may be used as evidence against you should the Attorney General determine that enforcement action is appropriate. Please feel free to call me if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
(-Signature-)
Beth E. Kearsley
Complaint Analyst
BEK/ij
enclosures
cc: Stephen A. Langford
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Consumer Rights 160 East 300 South
Box 140872
Salt Lake City
Utah 84114-0872
Tel: (801) 366-0310 FAX (801) 366-0315]
. . . . .
If you would like to contact Beth Kearsley and direct her attention to your own histories
with Iomega, pointing to Rob's site at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/surak1/iomegag.htm
and my own at
http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/action.htm
I guess it could not hurt!
In the meanwhile, I am doing what I can to add this letter to my site.
10/22/96:
Hi, Mehdi Daoudi! :))
I am very pleased that you appreciate my efforts to get some legal action against
Iomega. It might help if you and your friends let the Utah Atty. General's Office know directly
what you think of Iomega's recent history of "User Non-Support."
Do well! :))
Steve
10/22/96:
Hi, Jean! :))
I THINK my system is again acting like a COMPUTER! :)) (whew!)
At 05:36 AM 10/22/96 PST, you wrote:
>Bravo, Steve,
>Your actions are to be commended! What you do, helps everyone who will
>find it necessary to deal with Iomega, and needs their cooperation to
>successfully solve their iomega product problems.
-- That is indeed the whole point.
>Under the circumstances Iomega is getting off light.
-- I have not yet decided upon the proper level of response on my part. Do you mean light with my asking for $200 and demanding that they get a 1.800 customer-support line (that does the job) going?
> The technical response I got that forced me to abandon my quest for a Zip was their
>machinized non-human anonymous, no-questions asked 'help'line that was a
>no-brainer, as well! Iomega company projected the idea that no problem
>was so big that buying MORE of their equipment wouldn't solve.
-- Good point! May I quote you and use your email address if it seems to be appropriate?
>Thanks again Steve, a GOOD JOB!
-- That feels good. Thanks, Jean! :))
10/22/96:
[Anonymous],
I very much appreciate your perspective on this, however, please see below:
At 08:53 AM 10/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Steve. . .
>Why don't you take the software and let the rest be?
-- Because There is so much evidence of their user-be-damned attitude, [Anonymous].
>The Iomega folks have enough trouble trying to pull their customer service
>operation together in the face of incredible demand for their products.
-- If this were so, then it would have been possible for people to have contacted them, once in a while, over the years. Here is some of what Jean Stillwell just said, for instance:
"The technical response I got that forced me to abandon my quest for a Zip was their machinized non-human anonymous, no-questions asked 'help'line that was a no-brainer, as well!Iomega company projected the idea that no problem was so big that buying MORE of their equipment wouldn't solve."
>Don't give them any more. Let them work it out without the threat of
>distracting law suits. . .
-- The threat of a law suit has been the only thing that has been able to grab their attention, [Anonymous]. In looking around the Web, I have seen stuff about their having given a "prize Zip drive" to an employee; the drive turned out to be refurbished.
They are in the process of laying people off and outsourcing repairs to their drives to an oriental branch.
They have laughed and have reported in writing their laughter about customer complaints. Their arrogance demands a firm correction.
>Why go to all this bother just to claim a $200 victory?
-- A $200 victory will hardly begin to compensate me for the troubles I have taken, [Anonymous]. The point is that this company can afford to give good customer service. They give none at all. To gain a firmer understanding of what I am saying, visit some of these sites
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/surak1/iomegag.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/surak1/iomegag1.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/surak1/iomegag2.htm
http://www.akula.com/~jwu/wwwboard/wwwboard.html
http://www.akula.com/~jwu/wwwboard/messages/1363.html
and chase for yourself where they lead. IMHO, it is time for American companies like Iomega to give its customers a fair shake in the user-support arena.
Nonetheless, I grant you that your attitude has great merit. I just wish I could be so charitable, after having gone through the great pains I have experienced trying to deal with Iomega. Love their product (at least the Zip drive), but hate their absolute lack of customer support. In the words of Mephistopheles in Goethe's opera "Faust,"
"Something must be done."
Steve
. . . . .
>Send them an encouraging thank you note and wish them well. . .
[Sigh. --SL, 9 Feb 1997]
10/22/96:
At 04:57 PM 10/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Steve. . .
>
>Today's business model doesn't usually allow for a
>personal support component.
-- I'd like to fix that.
>That's why most software vendors charge for calls.
-- I can still point to companies providing excellent 1.800 support to their users.
> Most corporate accounts, for example, would rather separate out support costs
> from product costs, as they can take care of support internally. So they drive
> down the unit price to the point where the publisher -- or manufacturer in the
> case of peripherals -- can't afford to give away good customer service. . .
-- Happy mediums are desired. I do not want to put any company out of business by insisting that it stay on the phone with any single customer too long. But there are times when long phone calls are necessitated by exigencies beyond the user's control -- as in the hardware mismatches I just took three weeks going through. I never would have solved the problem without lots of good help from several directions, including my ISP.
>For myself, I don't expect to use support unless
>something just flat out breaks.
-- You are an engineer. Most people are not so knowledgeable as you about all this. If manufacturers take a bloke's money, they should provide support. [IMHO! --SL, 9 Feb 1997]
>In the case of Zip drives, you are getting a lot of product for the money,
>and you pretty much take your chance. If it breaks, count on buying
>another one, just like with worn out toner or inkjet cartridges. Tough
>model, but there it is. . .
-- When people never can get it to work in the first place, they should not have to eat the drive.
>I agree Iomega takes the "to hell with the customer"
attitude a bit far,
-- Thank you.
>but you have to go into something like that
with your eyes open.
-- No. I can expect better consumer protections in the computer world than have yet been invoked, and I can use the existing powers of the law to try to correct a damnable situation.
> To expect reasonable service in such a situation
is -- IMHO -- an unrealistic assumption.
-- OK.
>You are just tilting at windmills to make them fit
your idea of what the business model should be. . .
-- You bet I am! [Image added 9 Feb 1997; SL]:
Pablo Picasso's "Don Quixote"
And, I decided to play a bit of hardball, to get this donkey's attention with the baseball bat of an Atty. General's Office. So far, so good.
>Hey, if that's important to you, fine.
-- It is important not just to me but to many others as well.
. . . I tend to be a bit more pragmatic
>about the way the business operates these days. . .
-- No, I think that you have given up as a consumer and that you tend to see more the side of the producer than of the consumer. All I want is fair play and a level playing field.
Hi, Gene! :))
At 05:56 PM 10/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Say, why not include a sub-class for those of us that have waited 12 weeks
>with no rebates in sight.
-- I like the idea but do not want to create another Web page just for that subclass.
. . . I did get into Iomega on no less than an 888
>free number.
-- Remarkable! I am glad to hear a counter-example! :))
. . . A very nice lady was able to find my registrations, customer ID# and
> said my rebate was 'somewhere" on the system, but there were only a
>couple of people doing them and there were tens of thousands to process.
>So now what?
-- I guess you wait. Or, you write to the Utah Atty. General as I suggest at my site
http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/action.htm
I am thinking of putting all these responses from people like you onto my site. Is it OK with you if I put yours there with your email address, if I ever get a round tuit?
Steve
10/23/96:
Hi, Tim! :))
Thanks for your (as always) thoughtful response!
At 09:46 PM 10/22/96 EDT, you wrote:
>I have not had a chance to look at the ref url's yet.
-- They are quite a trip.
>But I DO agree that all of these types of companies should have customer
>support lines available at all hours of the day. and they should also not
>keep customers on hold for 30-90 minutes at a time. anything over five
>minutes is unacceptable.
-- Good points!
>i do not understand why it is so hard to get, not just an 800 number, but
>even a regular phone number for a mail order company sometimes.
-- I hear you, but I can fight only one battle at a time.
. . . I've
>been in these CD clubs and no where in anything that they send to you is
>a phone number, they just expect you to write to them to straighten
>anything out and you end up getting a form letter back 3-4 weeks later
>asking you to send them the same information back that you already wrote
>them about.
-- Such lack of responsiveness is one reason I don't join such clubs. However, what you CAN (and should) do in a situation like that is to quit and then enjoy all the free stuff they keep billing you for illegally when they ignore your quit order. Only when more people do that will that situation change, I believe.
>so, is the subject phone # available for them?
-- You call and get voice messages on numbers I have called. One guy says he broke through, talked to a rep who was one of but two people handling more than 10,000 rebate claims; rebates are more than 12 weeks late, already, if I understood correctly.
>is that the first response that you got from Iomega?
-- Yes. Well, it is the first response to the "preliminary legal action of involving 2 state Atty. General's Offices," anyway.
. . . if it is, its really too bad that customers should
>have to go through the hassles of writing to the
>state attorney general to get any response or action.
-- I could not agree more wholeheartedly.
. . . how can
>companies like that stay in business?
-- My friend, [Anonymous] (to whom a copy of this) says that such mfrs just crank out unbelievably good products at unbelievably-low prices, and that consumers should just throw away the bad ones and buy good ones to replace them. I don't agree that this situation should be permitted to persist.
. . . at least they admitted their
>mistakes,
-- This is a notable first re Iomega, I think.
. . . more than we ever got Olan mills to do. it ended up costing us
>about $100 and five trips to the courthouse and we got nothing out of it.
> They had lawyers come up from Tennessee and just when the judge was
>about to award karen the case (even though he spent a long time laughing
>about it earlier) their lawyer showed the judge an unpublished change in
>the law, which actually had happened because of all the lawsuits that
>were brought against olan mills, that didn't allow someone to file a
>claim against them until they had harrassed at least one additional time.
-- Stinks.
>have you been using your scanner to scan these letters in?
-- Yes.
. . . i've used the
>OCR a couple of times. i've saved karen the trouble of going and making
>copies a couple of times also, although it is a lot quicker to use a
>xerox machine if its close by.
-- Yes! But it does not digitize output to character/GUI files. . . .
Thanks again for your input, Tim! :))
Steve
Newsgroups to which I have been posting:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems
comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
comp.sys.mac.misc
10/28/96:
Your satisfaction is duly noted.
At 02:28 PM 10/27/96 -0600, you wrote:
>I have had no real problems with Iomega or any of their products. The
>little bit of customer support I did require came quickly and easily in
>the form of "enclosed documentation". The instructions that came with
>the drive I purchased allowed me to easily install the product, which
>has performed beyond all my expectations.
[Anonymous]!
Thanks very much for your interest and input. Yes, it would be nice to establish
some minimum standards for customer service. Such negligence can amount
to fraud, I think.
It may be that my action has made Iomega put enough resources behind their Tools 5.0
online support so that you had no problems, and it may be that the ISDN in the clue.
Hard to tell. I really hope that all my efforts have done something to grab some people's
attention and to improve customer service, somewhat -- at whatever company.
Meanwhile, I still seek a lawyer willing to take on a class-action lawsuit on a contingency
basis. Perhaps I shall find one, but I begin to doubt it.
Anyhow, thanks for your input!
Steve Langford
["Bruce Tyler" <brucetea@aol.com>
1 November 1966]:
Hi, Bruce! :))
At 05:34 AM 11/1/96 -0800, you wrote:
>I downloaded the Tools from AOL with no problem.
-- Good to hear this, Bruce!
>I use an external Zip drive and an internal SCSI Zip drive. Have never had
>a problem. Love Iomega.
-- I use external Parallel Zip.
>While I respect your passion (I have similar feelings about Peachtree
>Software),
-- The problem is not only Iomega, by any means. However, their great success, coupled to
lack of user support, makes them a prime target for trying to set some legal precedent, IMHO.
. . . you must realize that not EVERYONE has your problem. Your class
>action attempts will not work as Iomega has showed no intent to defraud.
>What are you going to sue them for?
-- I can not fault you for not having read my entire site, but the fact is that they have admitted
that they take my complaint very seriously.
When they say that they are making download available at their site but it is (was?)
virtually impossible to download from that site -- for weeks -- I say that this constitutes a
bait-and-switch fraud tactic: Get the customers wanting the product, make the free stuff unavailable, and then sell them the disk when they give up.
Two state Attorneys General saw enough logic in that argument to forward my complaint
to Iomega, who acted quickly to try to get me to shut up.
>I cannot comment on their customer service as I have never had problems
>with my Zip drives. I have read however, that many people who need them,
>can't get to them - which distresses me. I am hoping to see the zip as the
>new "floppy standard" and it won't happen with poor CS.
-- Right! But Iomega has evidently arranged something with Epson, to both companies'
mutual advantage. People who buy Epson Zips to avoid Iomega are really fooling
themselves, I guess -- because the Epson product still carries an Iomega logo.
This suggests to me that Iomega is profiting from the so-called competition.
I admire Iomega's product. I watched its stock go from 13 (when I started watching closely)
to about 110. I actually made a bit (not much!) of money in there. But, given Iomega's
consumer-be-damned attitude -- which is much too common in the computer industry -
I decided that it is time to act.
Thank you for taking the time to share your feelings and perspectives, Bruce! :))
I am posting your letter anonymously. If you would like me to add your name and
email address, please say so.
Steve
>Bruce Tyler [Added later.]
At 09:50 AM 11/1/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Steve Langford wrote:
>> I like that "I owe mega"!
>> I am also interested in your name Mojo.
>>I believe it is an Ojibway name.
>> How do you come to use it?
>Long story. Just a nickname that stuck!
>>May I publish your note to me with your email address?
>Yes you may.
-- Great! Consider it done.
>> Next:
>>The problem is that we do not have enough people for a class, yet,
>> and I have had no luck at all finding a lawyer.
>>I am pondering what to do next to find a lawyer willing to take on a
>> class-action lawsuit on a contingency basis, and intend to say something
>> about it at my Web site. If you have not yet seen it, please go to
>> http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/action.htm
>> and let me know what you think.
>I have seen it and think it's great!
>> At that site, you can find the address of the Attorney General's
>> Office, Utah. I suggest that people should be writing to that office
>> directly. But, I am busy trying to put together a way to publish at the
>> site what email people send me. It is made tougher because many people
>> write me but never write back with permission to use what they send me. so,
>> I do my best.
>Perhaps if the AG gets enough letters they will put the squeeze on
>Iomega.
-- I think that this is what will do the trick. I'll try to make that clearer at the site.
>Let me know what else I can do.
-- Keep thinking, communicating, finding people willing to write Utah AG and willing to join
in class-action suit! Find us a good lawyer! :))
Steve
To: "Eugenio Andres" <eandres@ctv.es>
Cc: "Rob Jones" <surak1@ix.netcom.com>,
"Jean Stillwell" <Chalengr@wg.isis1.net>,
"Mehdi Daoudi " <mehdi@inx.net>,
"Tim Dowling" <TDowling@Strong-Funds.com>,
"Stefan Kelm" <kelm@pca.dfn.de>,
"Mojo" <mojo@foundation-i.com>,
"Cliff Neal" <Cliff_Neal@connstep.state.ct.us>
1 November 1996
Dear Eugenio:
Thank you sincerely for your honest letter, which I try to answer, below:
At 09:06 PM 11/1/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I have bought three Iomega ZIP drives and about 20 cartriges so far.
>One drive quit because of putting it on a non-Iomega power supply.
>The other two (1 SCSI, 1 parallel work perfectly). Of the 20
>cartriges, 19 were good, 1 was bad.
-- Sounds good to me! I like my parallel ZIP drive very much, too -- and have yet to have
a problem with it. Credit where credit is due, I say! :))
>I am not connected to IOMEGA in any way, but this is much better than
>most other products I've had, plus a lot cheaper. I don't regret
>losing a ZIP cartridge (just like floppies sometimes are bad), and
>the ZIP drives have been a real help, plus much cheaper than any
>previous alternatives. (Before the ZIP I was considering buying an
>optical 230MB drive or a Syquest for about $600 !). Therefore I don't
>understand your efforts to go against a company that has brought
>cheap and easy removable storage to the rest of us.
-- Fair enough! And, well said. Thank you for stating your doubts so clearly.
>My guess is you're trying to make a quick buck attacking someone
>who's got the dough - ain't it? And isn't that the reason for your
>web page?
-- Somehow, I wish it were that simple! If it were, I'd save a batch of time and
forget the whole thing!! ;)) Please understand:
To me the question of product/user support goes far beyond problems with Iomega:
1. I believe that many of the problems we computer users face so routinely would
be much less difficult and less frequent if companies were to pay more attention
to detailing for users as well as for vendors just what the compatibilities and
incompatibilities are, in the first place. Good manuals should be available, and they
should have good indexes. Quality counts.
2. I seriously doubt that I'll ever get any financial benefit from this work. In fact,
I am having a hard time finding a lawyer to take this seriously. If, in fact, a
punitive award ever should be assessed against Iomega, this highly successful
company will hardly be put out of business by such a judgment, is my guess.
Nor is it my intention to do such harm to Iomega or any other company. I agree
with you that it is hard to succeed and that success deserves honor. So long as
honor is a two-way street, of course. Companies that arrogantly dishonor their
users deserve what they get as a result.
3. In my own experience, too many companies, in the computer industry, too quickly send
users with problems to the other companies involved in interfacing problems, rather
than handling the calls themselves in the first place. Iomega takes it one step
further -- no free user support at all! (Well, that overstates my case a bit, but it is
almost that bad.) I can point to computer-related companies in the USA that provide
good, 1.800, free technical support to their users. Something like that should be
more of a standard than the "example" set by Iomega in the user-support arena, IMHO.
4. Users have come to expect routine problems with computers. But Iomega is a company
that has now led the way by showing that products can be essentially trouble-free!
Unless they are not trouble free, of course. What does the guy who just spent $400
on a new drive but can not get it to work feel like doing to Iomega, you should ask.
Do you want him to eat his drive? You can read what HE wants to do at
http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/mailin.htm
His is one of the last letters posted there to date.
5. If more users would complain more loudly and effectively against companies who
do not bother to support their users, perhaps I could turn my attentions to things
that interest me much more than all this does. However, IMHO, it is high time
for somebody to set an example of some company as to what minimal user-support
standards really ought to be met in the computer industry.
>I hold in contempt those who attack successful people and companies.
-- I share some of your contempt for such people.
On the other hand, I hold in contempt people who put no bridles at all on their own
personal greed, such as CEOs whose unbounded perks are essentially rip offs from
potential stockholder profits.
Our world needs a better sense of balance in such matters. It is shameful for
management to take home such multiples of workers' salaries as is so common in the world,
today, I believe. Obscenity is limited neither to pornography nor to violence; it is also
common to the world of high finance.
>I have had a few companies myself
-- What is your specialty?
. . . and I've seen how difficult it is
>to succeed. Therefore I respect people who succeed, I don't attack
>them (unless they go after everybody else).
-- Iomega is attacking users through benign neglect. Do you think I have invented
all these stories? Go to some of the related sites that you can find listed at
http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/related.htm
and see whether or not you then believe that I would better spend my time baying at the moon.
>Come on, get a life, do something constructive and leave
other working people alone.
-- I would die for your right to express such an opinion, but I wish that you would give me
the benefit of the doubt and thoroughly to research my Web site before coming to so
shallow an opinion of me.
I think it only fair to point out to you that two states' attorney general's offices
found enough merit in my claim to warrant pursuing the matter.
May I use your letter, your name and your email address?
Thanks for a nice (incisive) letter! :))
Sincerely,
Steve Langford
[2 November 1996
To: "Eugenio Andres"
Cc: "Timothy M. & Karen Dowling" ,
BruceTEA@aol.com]:
Dear Eugenio:
At 05:39 AM 11/2/96 +0100, you wrote:
>How do you know it's a problem of the Jaz drive
and not of his computer? (a Jazz drive requires a
SCSI adapter that can be quite tricky to set up.
I had lots of troubles even with Adaptec SCSI
cards - the best on the market - on a low quality
motherboard).
-- Good point!
I am not at all afraid to grant you that point. Actually, it is central to the argument I am trying to make! :))
I suspect that the current state of affairs has gone beyond even Microsoft's ability
to keep track of compatibility issues. One thing I would like to see happen is
the formation of some sort of consortium or user's group that would keep track
of what can be made to work with what.
I just went through three weeks of downtime because of incompatible controller cards,
when installing a new hard drive. Those were painful weeks, especially as their timing
interfered directly with my creating the Web pages you have seen in a coherent fashion.
I still have not had time to do those pages the way I would like to have done them.
Too many users are wasting too much time -- and wasting the time of consultants like you -
due to incompatibilities. Vendors, IMHO, have a real responsibility to document
much more clearly and completely than they now do, just what products and configurations
their products can be expected to work with, and which components should be avoided.
The problem is that when incompatibilities are discovered, the user finally goes home
with a ?working? (mine still has some minor problems) system, the vendor tech/consultant
breathes a sigh of relief, and the matter is put to bed. Nobody puts the information just learned
into a data base for the benefit of all. To me, this situation is ripe for starting a new business,
for-profit or non-profit, developed strictly from the user's perspective.
In the meantime, vendors should be doing more to ensure that what they sell works
satisfactorily. If the user must return a product into which he has put many hours in trying
to make it work and then must return it, the seller has effectively stolen his time.
Not a very good warranty, IMHO.
>1 gig removable drives (optical at that time)
were more than $1.000 before Iomega
started the price war about a year ago.
-- You mean comma, not decimal, I presume. ;)
> . . . In that light, $20 does not seem that much.
In any case, most stores have money-back
guarantees, so he could always return it if he
can't get it to work.
-- See above, re the issue of stealing the user's time.
>I am a consultant and I'm finding compatibility
problems every day. I am really fed up with them,
so I couldn't agree more with you.
-- WOW! :)) We've come a long way, brother!! ;)
>I have found that quality is SEVERLY on the decline,
in my opinion due to the fierce price war
that does not leave any margin for quality checking
and giving a decent service. Most companies have
gone very cheap. Some have not gone quite that cheap
and those are the ones I buy from.
-- This is central to my own argument.
If more companies were forced to put more work into presenting their products well, costs
would not be quite so low, but compatibility problems would be many fewer. Both users and
tech-support folk would benefit from having more products that work well together and more manuals that anybody can read. It would cost more, but it would be worth the extra cost, IMHO.
Putting out good equipment that can be made to work on only a hit-or-miss basis
amounts to putting out crap.
> . . . Amongst these Iomega, Gigabyte, Hewlett-Packard,
US Robotics,
-- I have had very bad experiences with USR. Not only did they sell me a 14.4Kbps Sportster
internal that never worked quite right, they (like Iomega) refused to talk to me to help me
get it going, just after I bought it.
I made it limp along, but when I got on the Internet and tried to download Web pages,
I learned (PAINFULLY) that it had the spiral-death syndrome. It went slower and slower
until it finally even halted, sometimes.
Finally, by using email addresses that were almost impossible to find, I got somebody at USR
to help me. They finally sent me a replacement chip. It arrived one week after I installed my current Motorola 28.8Kbps external OnlineSURFR.
My ISP just installed a new bank of USR modems. They had chip-set problems. We could not connect, most of the time. ISP was very apologetic. USR sent new chips. ISP is working again.
Is USR going to compensate my ISP for the customers it lost, due to these problems?
It is time for companies like USR to get their act together correctly in the first place,
before shipping crap that forces its customers to be its guinea-pig test beds. Then, more
of your life might be spent dealing with software development instead of hardware-
compatibility problems.
I would like that world better than this one.
> . . . Acer, Creative. . . and some local suppliers that
are a little bit more expensive (about 10%) but that provide
me with good quality stuff for memories, etc. - these
guys still have some problems, but 10 times less than the
others. And even if you put a good piece of equipment
(e.g. an HP Laserjet) onto a bad one (e.g. a bad parallel
port on a cheap motherboard), you'll have problems.
So even if you do make good equipment, you're bound
to get problems, as soon as you connect to some lower
quality, faulty or non-standard gear.
-- Understood. But, you should, as a vendor, give your users some good, swift support to get up and running, under warranty and without extra charges, IMHO. Build such costs into the selling price. Advertise that you are doing so, and I think customers will come to your door.
>In my opinion it is desirable to get a good service,
but be prepared to pay for it either directly
or through higher products prices.
-- Good! :))
>I don't believe there is any financial margin left at all
in their operations (just look at Syquest, that had to stop
making their drives because they even lost money on them!).
-- "Blame" Iomega, the All-American company! Actually, in this context I do not
fault Iomega at all! But, they have made enough money, now, to be able to offer better
customer support. So has Microsoft. So have many other computer-related companies.
It is time for users to demand quality support from [rich] companies.
> . . . And usually most of the margin is going into
lower sales prices (I paied $200 for a ZIP last year and
now I saw them for $130 !)
-- This aspect of computers is indeed amazing.
>I've been in this field for a long time and 10 years ago
everybody had a hefty 30% sales margin at much higher
prices and made enough money to go and install the
computer at the client's office, help him, talk to him, etc.
-- I was in the computer-sales business in 1982. Not everybody made hefty profits, I assure you.
> . . . The field was blooming and everybody
-- no.
> . . . was making money. Now computer companies
are closing or struggling left and right, even one time
"biggies" like Borland, IBM, etc. As far as I can tell
they are mostly "squeezed" as much as they can be
(with rare exceptions).
-- Borland failed to compete with more good products like Pascal. And, every time I bought a
C or C++ product, it was already outdated.
Borland failed directly because of bad customer support, IMHO. Rather that fixing known bugs
for customers, they just kept putting out "upgrade" [versions] that had more bugs than the last
one did! I finally stopped trying to use their products, but I invested several hundreds of dollars
in Borland stuff before I wised up.
>So If one of the few halfway "decent" companies
around gives you (mostly) good products at
a good price, I'd rather be grateful
-- I am grateful for good hardware, but I damn bad support and lack of support at every turn.
I single out Iomega merely because they can afford the flak, and I must start somewhere -
because nobody else is doing any truly effective complaining, in these regards.
> . . . and if you have some complaint, well push
them and kick them in the a.. if you want, but
please bring your complaint forward in such a way
that it does not harm the companies we all depend on.
-- I may be wrong, but it seems to me that a class-action lawsuit -- or the threat of one -- is the
only way to get the serious attention of companies like Iomega.
No single user is taking enough of a loss to justify hiring an attorney to fight
on his behalf effectively and with any realistic hope of winning compensation enough
to cover legal costs. Only with a class-action suit does the public have a chance to even
the playing field.
> . . . I don't want to have to go pay the
old Syquest prices again or see a $20 increase
in ZIP drives to cover the cost of a suit. . . or
have four competing standards and end up
with a "Betamax" type removable drive.
-- Your fear of seeing hard-drive prices go up again is entirely unrealistic, IMHO. Competition
does not and will not go away. Other companies can and do already successfully mimic
the Iomega product line.
Iomega itself will sink or swim depending more upon its future attitude towards customers
than upon its technical expertise, If I have anything to say about it at all.
>(As an aside: I am earning a "worker's"
salary, if not a bad one.)
-- That is more than I am making.
>But my opinion is: Salary depends on fair
exchange. What is fair exchange for what a CEO does?
Well, what did he do for his company their clients
and the people in it? The answer to that tells you what
fair exchange is. In the case of IOMEGA, man would
I have loved to have a guy like that in MY company
and make ME rich. I don't care how many megabucks he
takes home.
-- I see. So, if as an employee of Iomega you were given a Zip drive as a prize, which turned out
to be refurbished, you would be real happy? Or, if you were an Iomega employee being
layed off these days because Iomega is not repairing any products in the USA any longer,
but is shipping them to a new outsource in Asia, you would be happy?
I admit that I have merely learned these things only by reading stuff on the Web, so not all
I read may be true. On the other hand, "where there is smoke there is fire" has some merit.
Until Iomega makes its stand clear on such issues, I repeat what I have read with some
dismay and lingering wonder.
>Same goes for Microsoft - if you are in their camp.
Gates made everybody
-- I doubt that
> . . . in his company rich. Loads of people who
have Microsoft shares have made tons of money
This doesn't mean I endorse their business practices,
but if you're in their camp, man is
Gates worth his weight in gold!
-- I respect Microsoft and Bill Gates. I have a dear friend at Microsoft who has become a
colleague, all via the Internet. So, in a sense, I am in their camp, though not at all
compensated. Microsoft is in a position to do our world lots of good, and I think Gates
will see to it that both Microsoft and Gates do lots more than just make money, in the
future. I think they are going to be doing more like Gates just did for Harvard, with a
$25M donation. I hope I am correct on that take.
>The other side of the coin is people who are
getting paied for not doing a job or for doing
a very bad one or for doing nothing at all - I
don't care at which level - janitor, CEO or
"financial emperor".
-- Too much of that goes on, too: sinecures.
>But an executive at a company is very different
from a "high finance" guy. An executive
in a company PRODUCES something valuable
(or he won't be there for long, or otherwise
the company won't). A "high finance" guy, a
speculator, does not produce anything valuable,
he just "steals" money from you and me by
tricking us. Just look at all that "finance" and
"economy" stuff they try to make so complex
at the banks aso that nobody understands their
rip-offs and they can just go on doing it. Every
time I talk to my bank I have arguments with
them because they think I'm stupid and don't
realize they are tricking me out of my money by
paying me slow, charging me fast, paying very
low interest (if any) and charging a very
high one, etc.
-- Different subject.
>I am a software developer and consultant.
I'm not doing badly, but I'm not getting rich (yet).
-- Best wishes! :))
>I just looked at the letters you received and it seems
like there is a mixture of both good and bad experience.
-- I try to present all sides.
>Let's put it like this: My 2c: Fine if you complain.
Fine if you set up a Web page to pressure them
to give better service. Go ahead and do it
if you feel like it.
-- Consider it done! ;)
> . . . But no killing these guys please.
Go kill some criminal companies
-- I believe that when companies refuse to support their own products under warranty, they are being criminal -- no matter the company's name or how good its product is for some situations.
I decry as strongly as possible the theft of my time, when plug-n-play stuff does not work
as advertised.
False advertising of products, false advertising of user support, incompetent
technical support personnel, total lack of good user support, whether or not it is paid
for beyond original purchase price . . . ALL such issues demand the strongest possible
public outcry, I believe. Fraud, deceit, theft, and benign neglect by companies that are
raking in millions in profit amounts to criminality, no matter what the company names.
> . . . if you feel like it, but please not Iomega
nor HP nor Gigabyte, Sony and the like.
I like their stuff. It's ten times better then the rest.
-- Manufacturers who put out good products should put out good documentation and reasonable
user support as well. Those companies are the ones who will survive . . . I hope.
>>I think it only fair to point out to you that two states' attorney general's offices
found enough merit in my claim to warrant pursuing the matter.
>Well, lawyers are lawyers and have to have
enough conflicts a year to justify their jobs,
personnel, etc. I don't sympathize with lawyers
at all. From my point of view in general
we'd be better off without them. They brought
us the Lotus "look and feel" issue that was
dragged out for years to make them rich and
crippled Borland and did not contribute
to Lotus at all, plus thousands of others. Where
lawyers come in, they win and everybody
else mostly loses.
-- My Dad was a lawyer and my eldest daughter is training to become one. Despite those realities,
I share your feelings about lawyers to a very large degree. Nonetheless, lawyers still have
a proper place in our society. Like it or not, they will not be going away. I shall try to use
the legal system as well as possible, to do some good, not some harm.
If Iomega goes out of business simply because it is too stubborn to help its customers,
then I say: "Good riddance!".
However, I hasten to assure you: I have no intention of putting Iomega or any other
manufacturer out of business, so long as they provide reasonable user support.
>>May I use your letter, your name and your email address?
>go ahead as long as you use it in its entirety, unedited.
-- I never edit the originals you can find at
http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/mailin.htm
However, I chop as necessary when commenting on letters that already are shown
at the above address, when responding to them at */~s/mailout.htm.
>> Thanks for a nice (incisive) letter! :))
>Sorry if it was too acid. Thanks for your
kind reply (I honestly expected some big
flame or something).
-- I try to honor all points of view and do not fault you for your original doubts. You gave me
a chance to respond to some valid questions.
Sincerely,
Steve Langford
[2 November 1996
To: BruceTEA@aol.com
Cc: "Eugenio Andres" ]:
Hi, Bruce! :))
At 04:27 AM 11/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Steve,
>I did read most of your site and by no means
>am I trying to be condesending or trvial.
-- Thank you. :)
> >The problem is not only Iomega, by any means. However, their great
> >success, coupled to lack of user support, makes them a prime target for
> >trying to set some legal precedent, IMHO.
>Like I said, this will be difficult, however,
>the ends justify the means in that Iomega
>HOPEFULLY will get the message whether
>or not [our] efforts succeed.
-- Very good, Bruce! The idea is to effectuate a change, not to have a law suit . . .
if that is at all possible.
>>> you must realize that not EVERYONE has your problem. Your class
>>>action attempts will not work as Iomega has showed no intent to defraud.
>>>What are you going to sue them for?
> > I can not fault you for not having read my entire site, but the fact is
> >that they have admitted that they take my complaint very seriously.
>I did read most of your site including
>the letter from Iomega. Like I
>mentioned, I have said similar problems
>with peachtree software, wherin they
>CALLED me and offered me free upgrades, etc.
>To this say, I am one of the
>most outspoken adversaries on the AOL
>Peachtree forum. The KNOWLINGLY have
>released software with major bugs, careing
>not at all about the repercusions
>(sp). Many of us threateneing class action suits.
-- Misery loves company, eh? ;)
. . . It took them a year, but
>they finally got the software right (version 3.5).
>Their newest version, 4.0
>has bugs again. I have not upgraded. This
>differs in the Iomega situation in
>that the Zip drive is it's design, a good
>product. I agreee, by reading the
>posts from others that Iomega could use a
crash course in customer relations.
-- Telling them so is my purpose. That others may take a clue from this dispute is my hope.
>I also have owned their stock and if I was
>not so greedy, would have made
>ALOT more $$ than I did (I held it too long)
-- hehe
>> When they say that they are making download available at their site
>>but it is (was?) virtually impossible to download from that site -- for
>> weeks -- I say that this constitutes a bait-and-switch fraud tactic: Get
>>the customers wanting the product, make the free stuff unavailable, and then
>>sell them the disk when they give up.
>I also could not download from their
>WEB site, so I just did it from AOL, not
>thinking, of course that many folks do not
>use AOL!!! When they say it will
>be available at their WEB site, it should be
>made available - OR at the very
>least, send disks to anyone that calls them.
-- Thank you for understanding this point so clearly! :))
>>Two state Attorneys General saw enough logic in that argument to
>>forward my complaint to Iomega, who acted quickly to try to get me to shut
> >up.
>Good work.
-- Thank you, Bruce! :))
>>>I cannot comment on their customer service as I have never had problems
>>>with my Zip drives. I have read however, that many people who need them,
>>>can't get to them - which distresses me. I am hoping to see the zip as the
>>>new "floppy standard" and it won't happen with poor CS.
>> -- Right! But Iomega has evidently arranged something with Epson, to both
>> companies' mutual advantage. People who buy Epson Zips to avoid Iomega are
>> really fooling themselves, I guess -- because the Epson product still
>> carries an Iomega logo. This suggests to me that Iomega is profiting from
>> the so-called competition.
>I believe Iomega makes the drives for Epson.
-- Interesting.
>>Thank you for taking the time to share your feelings and
>>perspectives, Bruce! :))
>You're welcome. And keep it up. People
>like you and me (with the Peachtree
>situation) will take ALOT of flack
>(and I have, believe me) but we are the
>one's who keep these companies in line.
>I have also received many compliments
>and 'thank you's from people. We are
>the pain in their corporate 'asses'.
>These idiots who put us down do not
>release how THEY are benefiting from our
>efforts
-- Well said.
>>I am posting your letter anonymously. If you would like me to add
>>your name and email address, please say so.
>You may post my name and Email address.
>Please post this one also.
-- Hey, Bruce! Thanks for this clear indication. Will do.
>Good luck Steve. Hey, maybe the stock
>will go to $15 and I can buy another
>300 shares back!!!!!
-- HAHA! :))
I would not mind if their stock goes to !$52,000 per share!, so long as they do not
lose sight of helping their customers, when they need help. :))
Sincerely,
Steve
[2 November 1996
To: "Steve Balkin" ]:
At 11:03 AM 11/1/96 -0600, you wrote:
>May I use your letter? May I post your name and
>or email address?
>--Yes. But I have never used an Iomega drive.
>I thought something was fishy
>since they don't allow customers to contact them.
-- Thanks. You have a good nose for fishy! ;)
>> I have just taken a quick look at your own page, bookmarking it for
>>future reference. It looks like a nice beginning! :))
>>-- RIGHT! Shall we form a for-profit Better Computer Business User's Group
>>(or whatever)?
>--I think it should be an all volunteer
>non-profit effort unless you have
>the energy to make it a for-profit project.
>How about the "Computer Consumers' Complaint Group."
>We need some lawyers to join us.
-- Hire lawyers. Whatever the name (I like the sound of CCCG, by the way),
it would need to be settled upon "by committee."
>Tell me a little of your background. Be well. - Steve
-- Thanks for your interest. It is easiest for me simply to refer you to:
http://www.theriver.com/Public/busbeltkids/AUTHOR00.HTML
What about your own background, Steve?
Steve
[2 November 1996
To: "Gene Godsoe" ]:
Hi, Gene! :))
At 06:38 PM 11/1/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Steve;
>Thanks for forwarding your comments.
-- You are welcome! :))
> . . . I have looked through it and am not
>quite sure what to make of it overall.
-- The fault lies with the author. I shall try to make things cleared. Thanks for this comment! :))
> . . . My own complaint has to do with 16 weeks
>waiting for my rebates of $140 for two drives
>and two 10 packs, not to mention the "kits" that were
>to be sent if they were all on one receipt,
>which they were.
-- Yes, I recall this complaint.
>Perhaps I am not seeing the trees in
>the forest, but it appears that your
>complaints have to do with defective hardware
>or at least customer support
>to achieve a level of performance.
-- My OWN complaints deal with lack of customer support that amounts to theft of
users' time and bait-and-switch fraud.
I happen to LOVE my Zip drive. But, I decided not to buy a Jaz drive, as well,
when I could not get anybody at Iomega to answer a simple question.
>If there is a movement afoot for any
>kind of legal pressure to resolve the
>rebate problem, I would like to be
>pointed in that direction.
-- I guess that you are talking to the right person, here . . . but I have yet to find
a lawyer with the gumption to take this one on.
> . . . Fortunately, my two ZIP drives perform
>flawlessly under Win'95.
-- May this be always so! :))
> I do have one bad disk, right out of the box.
>But as it is guaranteed for life
>(mine or the disk), I thought to wait
>until I have several or all my friends
>pool them for one return shipment.
-- I used to do this with 5.25" floppies! I collected them, never returned them, and later wondered why.
>As for the good side of Iomega, I installed
>beyond count, dual Bernoulli
>20-20 systems, and then 150's before I retired.
-- Retired from what? What do you do now?
> . . . I never had a failed drive
>and only after 5 or 6 years did I see any
>failed 20 meg disks. Iomega
>seams to be like AT&T and a number of
>other companies that have 1st class
>engineering and manufacturing capability,
>but a bad customer support
>attitude. Nothing short of the entire
>trade publications going against
>them will change it.
-- Oh! I "_dunno_" about that!! ;)
> . . . Remember Lotus and Ashton-Tate that ate dirt rather
>than remove copy protection. Only when
>the fed's bared copy protected
>software from being used by any US Gov.
>agency did they end it. I don't
>know what could be done about Iomega
>unless the state of Utah could enact a
>law requiring 7 day repair/replacement
>turnaround of any defective product
>under consumer protection. Having their
>corporate headquarters in Utah
>could make them liable for any Iomega product anyplace.
-- Thank you for some good ideas, here! :))
>I will be looking for any further
>developments you may pass along.
-- Glad to help where I can, Gene. Please keep visiting my site, where I am posting
letters daily, as they come in, now.
Sincerely,
Steve
[ 2 November 1996
To: BruceTEA@aol.com ]:
HI, Bruce! :))
At 06:36 PM 11/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Steve,
>Just a note to let you know that I have
>received and read your latest. If at
>all possible, but me on your "mailing list"
>of people you reply to you and
>those that you keep 'posted'.
-- You are already on my Iomega-related list, thanks, Bruce! :))
>I will write Iomega via Email and
>put my two cents worth in.
-- GREAT! But don't forget to write to
Office of the Utah Attorney General
too, please. Perhaps one copy to one or the other with a copy to the other would do? ;)
> . . . Poor customer
>service is not to be tolerated and if I had
>problems with my Zip's and needed
>them, I would expect them to be there
>for me - and I will make this known.
-- "Atta guy!" :)) :))
>Too bad you are not a member of AOL.
>There is an Iomega stock message board
>where you could post your experiences
>(in the Motley Fool section).
-- I was a beta tester for AOL and wanted no part of it. I don't like robber barons between
me and the Internet, and am not sure what AOL does except get in the way.
Nonetheless, as you are a member, please feel free to aim AOL folk toward my site! ;)
> . . . 'Couse, the IO bulls will try to shove [sh*t]
>down your throat but, the truth is the truth.
-- Ain't THAT the truth! ;)
>I wish their CS [was as] good as their Zip
>products. Honest to God, I love my
>Zip drives so much. Currently own 18 Zip
>disks. Have most of my programs from
>diskettes on them. I have a travel case
>for the PP Zip!! Jeez, I am a Zip
>nerd, aren't I.
-- Me, too! :))
>I'll continue to monitor your site for info.
-- I'll do what I can to keep it interesting!
>Keep it up Steve. Like has been said before,
>I may not totally agree with
>your position, but I respect and will stand up
>for your right to argue it and
>be heard. God, I wish there were more
>like you and me - people who give a
>crap and have enough integrity to not be a "victim".
-- Misery loves company, eh> ;))
> . . . Most people just say' Oh
>well, that's the way it is, I have to live with it".
>Bull !!
>Drive that stock price down buddy.
>I won't buy it back unless it hits 15
>again. I got lucky with US Robotics.
>Bought in at 56, sold at 71 then it went
>to 82 (naturally) and now has fallen
>back to 60 (9% employee layoff's
>announced this week). May be a good
>time to get back into that one.
-- I am not very good at making money, whether or not on The Market.
>Take care
-- You too, Bruce! :))
>PS - If you ever want to talk voice,
>my # is 818-352-2326. I'll split the bill
>with you (I'll call you and then you call
>me - that kind of thing). I'd love to hear more
>about this verbally.
-- Bruce, first invest in VocalTec (VOCLF) [Note in addition: I should have mentioned here
that I have taken a paper bathe in my own ownership of VocalTec. It is definitely a contrarian
play and I do not pretend to be a financial advisor! -- SL, 3 November 1996]. Then get
Iphone v.4.5.0.x, with which you can use a video while you talk with people over the
Internet -- completely avoiding long-distance phone charges!
It works well enough to warrant whatever investments are necessary. Iphone itself
goes for about $50. Then you need a sound card, at least. If you want to send video (which I
don't, yet, due to limited funds) you'll need a video-capture card as well as some video-input
device. I intend to use our existing camcorder for the last.
You can download Iphone and play with it free, at www.vocaltec.com; it works now
for PC, PowerPC, ?PowerMac?, and Mac.
"See you" on Iphone?
Steve
[ 3 November 1996
To: "Edward Kurt Whitlock" <edwardw@inconnect.com> ]:
Dear Edward Kurt Whitlock! :))
Thank you for sharing your well-told story. It SHALL become part of my site.
You will be able to find it at
http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/action.htm
as soon as I have a chance to put it there! [It is also to be found just below.]
I was wondering how to answer one person's accusation that _I_ come across as
arrogant. I believe that our indignation is justified and that we must fight fire with fire.
Thank you for stressing Iomega's own arrogance.
Steve
. . . . .
At 08:46 PM 11/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
Just happened to run across your site today & thought
I'd tell you my story.
*snip*
[ 3 November 1996
To: "Mudshark" <mudshark@pipeline.com> ]:
At 04:24 PM 11/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I am not quite sure why you are doing this.
-- Then you can't read.
> . . . You are dissatisfied with
>Iomega. The answer is simple:
>DON'T BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM AGAIN.
-- I would rather try to help to mold them into a company with which I can comfortably
do business. I like their Zip drive and would like to dare to try their Jaz drive and other
products -- but their attitudes re customer service demand correction.
>Your demands state:
>>1. An email address for an identified Iomega representative,
>> with whom I may communicate more effectively and directly.
>How about if they give you the person's
home phone also and mothers address
and home phone and just in case you can't
reach anyone at those places maybe
God's e-mail address.
-- Get serious? Nah, I like your sarcasm! :))
> . . . They already offer an e-mail
address for customer service.
-- How many email messages have you ever received from Iomega that were directly
responsive to your problem/s?
>>2. Your promise that by a date certain Iomega will initiate and
maintain a 24-hour-per day, 7-day-per-week, nationwide,
telephone (1.800) service that is without any charge and is
manned at effective levels; for the technical support of
existing users and of potential customers.
>This is a moronic request.
-- Judge not that ye be not judged? My "demands" constitute a wish list. If you deem
them to be moronic, you have the right to your opinion.
> . . . You are trying to tell them how to run THEIR
>business.
-- You got THAT right!
> . . . They may not wish to spend THEIR money
>like this. If you don't like how they do business I repeat:
>DON'T BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM AGAIN.
-- There are more ways to bring pressure to bear on a company than by individually
boycotting their products. However, by extension, your suggestion that a massive
boycott of companies that do not provide reasonable customer service be boycotted is
well worth some serious consideration.
>> 3. Your promise that Iomega will give customers reasonable support
by email, as well.
>Again, trying to tell them how to run THEIR business.
-- Yup.
> . . . If you don't like how
>they do business I repeat:
>DON'T BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM AGAIN.
-- Boring.
>>4. Your promise to monitor the WWW in an effort to seek out
>> disgruntled customers and equitably to fix their problems.
>Ditto the above reasons. Ditto the solutions.
-- Ditto the "boring."
>If Iomega's customer support and products
>are that bad then they will lose
>market share and go out of business.
-- That they will go out of business if they do not improve their customer support is
my own fear! I have no argument with the miraculous hardware design they have put
into the loveable Zip drive. I wish I could afford to gamble with the purchase of a Jaz
drive as well. Were they to improve their customer service, I would not hesitate to do
more business with them or again to buy stock in their company. Until they improve
their customer service, I say "caveat emptor!".
>It appears, and I assume (as you assume you can use my e-mail for your own use,
not very good netiquette)
-- By writing to me with the knowledge that I will post your message, you have agreed
to the contract as stated.
> . . . that you want to start a class action law
-- Actually, I would much prefer that Iomega simply get its customer service act
together so that all I get in the email is praises for Iomega's customer service! That would
quickly obviate the need for me to be doing any of this, and I could happily shut up, here,
and go do stuff that is much more fun than talking to you.
> . . . suit becuase of poor customer service.
>Companies are not required by law to give customer
>service. IT IS good business sense, however.
-- Thank you.
> . . . I have heard lots of good things
about Iomega and I have heard lots of bad
things also. In my business I hear lots of good
things about my company and I hear lots of bad
things (I work for Flagstar Systems, owner of Denny's).
My wife (wo works for Ford Motor) hears good things
about Ford and bad things about Ford. It happens.
My company tries to correct bad customer service
and tries to build on good customer service. Not
all companies are like that. For those that don't change
there is bankruptcy.
-- I do not want to put Iomega out of business. I want it to become a company that even
I can be proud to have as an American one.
>If you just want some action on what
you call bait and switch then go for it.
-- Thank you for your kind permission.
> I personally don't think that it is since
THEY HAVE MAILED YOU A DISK
WITH THE TOOLS ON IT!!!
-- Together with a letter of apology.
That does not in any way mean that they have changed their general policies re
customer service and that they will treat the next guy -- who does not take the time and
energy to stir things up as I have -- the same sort of courteous consideration!
> What more do you want from them
other than full corporate ownership
(that is what it seems like with your "Demands").
-- I merely want them to get their customer service act together. They can afford
to treat their customers and their potential customers as partners in an exciting adventure
rather than as pigs being led to slaughter or as rubes at a circus.
Thank you for taking the time to write, Richard Sava ("Mudshark"),
Steve Langford
[ 3 November 1996
To: "Bruno Fernandes" ]:
Thanks for your letter, Bruno! :))
At 08:16 PM 11/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I've had no problems with Iomega support.
-- Consider yourself lucky!
> . . . I only needed to call them once.
-- Very lucky indeed, according to my own experience and that of others on file, here.
Just when did all this happen, I wonder? Are they actually getting their customer-service
act together??
> When I first bought my SCSI Zip drive
-- When?
> . . . I contacted them about a cable to allow
conenction to a micro D-50 SCSI II connector.
That call was to a toll-free number. They then
forwarded me to a number that was not
toll-free and they were paying for it.
-- How could they forward the call and change who was being charged at the same time?
Was this a separate call? Did they call you back?
> . . . There I was able to order the extra
cable I needed (no one locally could see fit
to carry the micro SCSI II cables).
-- I complained on 17 September 1996. Utah's Office of the Attorney General passed
my complaint to Iomega on 9 October 1996. That is about a month ago. Could it be
that you have [benefited] already from my actions?
> . . . I tried to download the softwware
upgrade. I found that their web site was a LOT
faster than it was last January. But because of
the demand for the new updates, it was under
considerable load. Either due to that load, problems
with my server or fate the transfer was taking some
time. I believe it would have been successful
nonetheless, but accidentally logged off forgetting
that it was still going. :)
-- Been there, done that sort of thing. Misery loves company, eh? ;)
> . . . I went on about a week ago and downloaded
the entire update for Win95 in a flash though.
-- I suspect I might by then have had some positive impact on Iomega.
>A company does not have to offer free software
of any sort. A company does not have to offer upgrades
nor even bug fixes to software for free. You agree to the
terms of any licencing agreements accompanying the
software. The only thing the company is bound by is
what they write in their warranty. The warranty
outlines your only rights, legal or otherwise.
-- Here, I must disagree, but only with your word "only." Warrantees are written
from the perspective of the company and are subject to state and federal laws and
interpretations thereof by judges.
Many disclaimers do not hold up in court.
>Anything other that what is mentioned in
the warranty in terms of support or other extra
functions is to be considered good-will on the part
of the company.
-- You put this quite nicely! Thank you for introducing the very helpful
concept of "good will" into this conversation. Have you some legal training?
> . . . It's what companies do to keep people
extra happy and coming back. A company not offering
these extras can be shunned in the marketplace and
lose a lot of business, but they are breaking no laws.
-- I can not disagree.
>They are simply running their business
as they see fit. If you think the company does not
deserve your business, then you are free not to give it to
them.
-- And, I am free to tell others why I have come to such a decision.
> . . . And if you require the product with
extreme urgency, there are now other companies
selling the same products.
-- Are they selling the same product without any benefit to Iomega? Are they
really offering alternatives to lining Iomega's pockets with monies from our purchases?
The Epson Zip drives also carry the Iomega logo. I suspect that they
are manufactured either by Iomega itself (as one writer has said) or are manufactured
by Epson under license by Iomega. In any case, I do not see buying a white Zip drive
from Epson as a real alternative to buying one from Iomega.
> . . . For these reasons I cannot agree with
any user actions against Iomega or any
company for that matter.
-- :))
Well, I can't win the all! ;) Nor can I fault you for your gentle and well-stated arguments.
On the other hand, you go too far for me, when you take what seems to be
the position that there can never be any good reason for user actions against any company.
That does seem to be an extreme position!
>I have not found anything on your web site,
including all correspondance to give me cause to change
my opinion regarding this specific matter.
-- OK. "Free country," "they" say.
>It is completely unreasonable to make the
demands you outlined in your letter to IOmega.
I actually found them to be quite arrogant.
-- Well, you probably feel that Jesus Christ himself was arrogant when he tossed
the moneychangers out of the temple!
I wrestled with that word "demand," finally deciding that under the
circumstances it was quite appropriate. I do not use it in the strictly legal sense,
as in asserting a legal right (p. 429, _Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition, 1990),
but in the looser sense as to what is my wish list and what Iomega needs to do
to get me off their backs.
Because I believe that providing good customer service is in the best
interest of ANY company, and because I believe that Iomega needs to get its act
together and start treating its customers reasonably, it seems only to be sensible
to fight their repeated and well-documented arrogances with some of my own
("fight fire with fire"). Before you can tell a donkey what to do, one must get
its attention!
Sometimes, indignation is called for. If you want to call me overly
self-righteous and arrogant, you have that privilege in this country.
>Anyway, my only beef with IOmega right
now is their software. But then again, it was FREE.
The interfaces are extremely primitive for starters
and performance isn't exactly top notch. About
the only serious complaint though is that the new
driver software causes VXD blue-screen application
failure on the properties tabs for Zip volumes.
Same thing happens on friends' systems. I'll be
writing to them about it shortly.
-- I hope that they are responsive to your needs and to those of so many others!
>I work full-time for a very well known
hardware/software manufacturer (Retail and OEM)
and I work freelance consulting and graphic design.
Thanks for taking the time to write, Bruno! :))
Steve
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:27:19 -0800
From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@epix.net>
Organization: Mib Software
To: s@TheRiver.com
CC: mibsoft@epix.net
Subject: My comments on action.htm
X-URL: http://personal.riverusers.com/~s/action.htm
Forrest,
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to send me your views.
At 03:27 PM 11/13/96 -0800, you wrote:
Since you claim not to have gotten very many
comments contrary to your views,
-- Gee, I did? Where did I say that? I wonder how long ago it was.
I have freely posted the views of people who disagree with me, and
I have commented upon some of them.
I feel obligated to send mine.
-- OK.
I use an Iomega 150 (Bernoulli) Multidisk.
While I believe that you and others have had
troubles with Iomega, does it really reach the
level of class action? Are you crazy?
-- Why?
Where do you think all of the expense of providing the
kind of customer support you require is going to go? Is
Iomega going to be able to keep their price the same? What
do you think makes mil-spec products so expensive?
-- Are you in the military? If so, you must be crazy! ;)
The solution to all of your problems has already been
invented. It is called capitalism. If you don't like
Iomega, don't buy from them. If you have a problem
with their products, send them back for a refund.
-- If you had bothered to read my email, you would see
that this is not a thought new to this conversation.
I believe it is in the best interest of Iomega to have
good products and good tech support. Companies do not
survive long in the world without it. But REQUIRING
through the use of lawsuits is just another form of
taxation that makes my blood boil.
-- No, this is not taxation, whatever may be the temperature of your blood.
By the way, I could "only stomach" the opening page of
your site. You may quote this message only in it's
entirety, unedited.
-- I shall post it as I received it (as has been my habit with other email in
this context, whether or not the writer has agreed with me) as well as with
my comments about it. If you happen to revisit my site when you have a
cooler disposition, you might be able to verify that I have honored your request.
Forrest Cavalier
Mib Software
Steve Langford
NAMES, ADDRESSES, & LINKS; PEOPLE AND GROUPS TO WHOM
YOU CAN WRITE
Perhaps the comment I need to make most often, when I read letters from people complaining about Iomega, is that it does no good for us to complain to each other. Please write to those in positions of authority, about such matters.
Other Correspondence:
August 1997 Correspondence
July 1997 Correspondence
June 1997 Correspondence
May 1997 Correspondence
April 1997 Correspondence
March 1997 Correspondence
February 1997 Correspondence
January 1997 Correspondence
December 1996 Correspondence
By the way, you might like to visit
"Seatbelts for School Buses"
Thank you for your interest!
Sincerely, Steve Langford
LETTERS OTHERS HAVE SENT TO UTAH'S OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
LETTERS OTHERS HAVE SENT TO IOMEGA CORPORATION
RETURN TO HOME PAGE
©Stephen A. Langford, Oro Valley, Arizona, 6 August 1997.
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
This document may be freely transmitted in its entirety,
so long as no monies are earned during the transaction/s.
Permission is required for any and all other pertinent circumstances.
(Metering for this page begun 31 October 1996. Last edited on 1 January 2006.)
